Ep 152: How Google A.I. Is Wasting Your PPC Ad Budget with Frederick Vallaeys

Did you know that Google's artificial intelligence is just blowing your PPC ad budget? Hey, this is Jaryd Krause, host of the Buying Online Businesses Podcast. And in this episode, I'm speaking with Frederick Vallaeys. And he is a Silicon Valley entrepreneur, author, and leading influencer in pay-per-click search marketing. Now, Fred is one of Google's first 500 employees. He helped pioneer PPC marketing as the company's first AdWords evangelist.

And today he serves as a co-founder and CEO of Optimizer, a leading and award-winning PPC management platform. In this podcast episode, Fred and I start to talk about how he actually started working for Google and what he did in the decade that he was actually there working at Google, helping them build their PPC platform. We also talk about how advertising artificial intelligence is actually costing you a fortune.

I saved $50,000 every month on one ad that I was spending $50,000 on but that got no sales. So Fred can really help people save money with their PPC ads. We also talk about why we should, as advertisers, understand how to be a PPC doctor and a PPC pilot. Fred explains what those are, how we can operate as the PPC doctor and the PPC pilot in our business when artificial intelligence is going to evolve, and what we should do and be prepared for when Google is trying to make their ad platform better. We talk about so much more in this podcast episode as well.

You're absolutely going to love it. Let's get stuck in. Today's episode is brought to us by Niche Website Builders, which is a company a few of my clients are using and have used for content creation and link building services. They do everything from start to finish. So from keyword research all the way to you, We've also had Bob members buy ready-made affiliate sites built by niche website builders. So if you're looking to outrank your competitors' content and build better backlinks, niche website builders and I have a special deal for you. Head to nichewebsite.builders.com/bob.

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Fred, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Welcome.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Jared. It's great to be here.

Cool, so I want to dive into all things Google Ads, advertising, how we can grow our e-commerce businesses with Google Ads, and all the cool things that are coming. But I know a lot of people are curious. Let's first start off with how you first started working with Google, what that experience was like, and what you drew from that to get to where you're at now.

Yeah. So I started working at Google when it was really small—still really small by today's standards. So there were about 500 people. And they needed someone who spoke Dutch because they were translating Google AdWords into its sixth language at the time. And so they were just looking across the Bay Area—does anyone here speak Dutch? Raise your hand if you do. A bunch of people did, but I was the most low key because some of the other people were like, Yeah, I speak Dutch, but where's my office and where's my assistant?

Not to Google culture. And I was like, Sure, I'll come do whatever you need me to do. And this was like 2002. So I just lost my job, and the dot com bubble had just burst. We're still on the way to deflating. So yeah, when a tech company like Google came along, I was like, Sure, give me anything, and I'll make it happen. And that was a really good move. And I've been doing PPC advertising ever since I stayed at Google for about 10 years and then decided that there were some of the problems that advertisers were having that they just weren't going to solve.

And so I started a company optimization firm, and that's what we do. We make advertisers' lives easier. We save them time and help them get better results. Um, so I have been able to move out of the PPC space, but I love it. So were you still working at Google when you started optimizing? No. So this was not a moonlighting gig, though a lot of people tried that. And I did try some things as well. But what was interesting?

My passion for PPC, when I was in college, I dabbled in PPC. I was on goto.com. So this was back in 1998, when not a lot of people were doing PPC. And I was basically buying these video cassettes at Blockbuster. If anyone remembers that company, I had the VHS rentals, but they would sell these cassettes that were really expensive, and they would sell them before they were supposed to under contractual agreements.

And so I would take these things and put them on eBay, but to drive more bids on auctions, I was buying keywords with those movie names, and then driving to my eBay listings. And so I was making enough money to have a good time and buy some technology gadgets here and there, but not huge money. And I could never figure out how to make huge money until I went to Google, and then we were in these meetings with the Tier 1 support team. So all the support was tied to how much you spent.

And one of the tier one people comes in and is like, Oh, all my customers, like mega affiliates. And I'm like, Uh, if they're mega affiliates, there must be something to this whole affiliate thing. So I went looking for affiliate programs that I could join, and I started buying keywords for all of these companies. So I was really big on eBay. I had car insurance. And while I was an employee at Google, helping to build the Google ad system, I was also one of its biggest advertisers, using that system to generate leads for all these companies.

And these companies hadn't seen the light yet. They were like, "Well, what's this whole PPC thing?" Like, some people are doing that, but not that many; nobody understood it. And I just did it better. Um, and so, and the way that I was able to do it better is that I built conversion tracking before conversion tracking was a thing from Google.

I built search term reports before that became a thing on Google. And so that's always been what I wanted to do was figure out how these systems work, but where are the gaps, and how do I fix these gaps so that advertisers can do better? And in the very beginning, I was the advertiser.

I was building this technology, and then Google obviously started building conversion tracking and all of these other things. But then I said, Okay, well, how do I take that to the next level? And that's how Optimizer came to be. So basically, you are the real optimizer. You started out optimizing yourself to get better results for PPC, right? And through affiliates, you know, buying leads and stuff like that. So when did you start running PPC ads for lead generation? What year was that?

So I joined Google in 2002. So shortly after I joined the company, it became clear to me that that was a good thing to do. I knew for sure by early 2003 because that's when I got a call from American Express, and they were like, What's going on with your credit usage because it's spiking right now? I was buying these keywords that were brand names of big companies, but they weren't, and so I could literally spend $30,000 a day on these keywords. And American Express was like, Well, are you going to pay us this money back?

We've never seen you spend this much money on the credit card. Um, so that was an interesting conversation, but that's kind of when I started doing it. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So you're basically just leveraging the cards. Yeah. I mean, it was, so I was basically arbitraging the fact that I could buy this traffic relatively cheaply on Google, and then these companies had a deal where they would pay me a much higher amount for each new customer that I brought in. And then there was the spread on the credit card, And that wasn't really part of the game.

I didn't like floating the money, right? But that was certainly helpful. As an affiliate, remember that you usually don't get paid for a long time after you've done that conversion. So it was actually a bit problematic, and the fact that they didn't pay me for 60 days but I had to pay my credit card before them was a bit of an issue. And for anyone listening, like, Hey, this is why I should go and do that. Like that was 20 years ago, like that's been done. That door has opened. Yeah, but there are other things you can do.

Yeah, of course. Different, you know, lines of credit in your business and stuff. But this isn't advice—investment advice. That's for sure a little disclaimer in there for us. So has optimization started? Did you start optimizing with the intention of optimizing PPC ads for affiliates? If so, how has that evolved into e-commerce? Like, what are the most popular people that are, you know, optimizing for ad agencies, right?

Not just e-commerce business owners. Is that right? Yeah. So optimizers for how we position it are people who do PPC or digital advertising for a living, and they generally know what they want to do, but they want to be more efficient, and they're generally frustrated by some of the limitations that Google puts in place. And that's kind of the light that I saw from being at Google.

So Google has a million plus advertisers—way more than that—but they don't really share the numbers. But you've got to build a product for a million users, and it has to work for all of them. And obviously, some of these users are novices, and some of them are really advanced. And so Google has always had this philosophy, it has to work for everyone. So there are these niche areas that are really important to the big advertisers that they just don't really build out. And that's frustrating, right? And even if I can get a small percentage.

To use some of my time-saving software, that's huge for them. That they're saving, in some cases, like we've got companies that are saving 10 head counts, 10 full-time employees, on something stupid manual they had to do that we can now do through software. And so those people can now actually be strategic and really add value to the business.

I want to come back to smart campaigns and the different ways that Google is providing us with products from these different ads, and how that can make it harder for different businesses in different niches. But let's come back to the head count. So people are actually able to save on having 10 employees by optimizing something within their campaigns. What was it that they needed to optimize?

So give us an example of how that played out for this business. Yeah, I mean, so the X-Act business is a really large name in sports and fashion. And they have a huge product catalog, and that catalog keeps changing like twice a week. There are new products being added, and there are products going out of stock. They're running these products across the globe, right? So they have different teams for Europe, but even within Europe, they have teams for different countries. Then they have those same teams in the Americas, in Asia, and across the world.

And so their challenge is that when you run, you want to make sure that you're advertising things in the right place. And you want to advertise the things you can actually sell. Now keep track of your inventory and what's coming into stock and match that to the campaign where it needs to be to have the right bid, the right landing pages, all the right settings, and the right budgets.

That's it. Right? So there's a new winter jacket. Okay, like, which campaign is it again? We've got 50 campaigns running, and each has like a thousand optimized ad groups built into the shopping campaign builder and automator. You basically tell us one time, Okay, I want to structure my campaigns based on product category, and then I want to have an ad group for each, like a subcategory or third level category, or I want to have ad groups based on the return on ad spend goal based on profit margin, for example. So you just set that up once the structure is set up, and then the tool, on a daily basis, looks at, Oh, what's new in the inventory, and where does that go?

So what does that mean for stuff we have to pause so you're no longer wasting money on it? That alone is like saving huge amounts of time. The Report is another good one. Like most agencies, right? We don't just work with agencies, it's in-house teams as well, but for agencies, a big part of their job is telling their clients, How did we do this month? We had one agency that was spending four hours a month on each client to put together all the data, right? Put it into a template with us that is specific to the Google Ads and Microsoft Ads worlds.

And you don't even have to, like, flick a button. It runs basically automatically, and it sends that report to the customer. But one little nifty thing is you can put a threshold so you can say, Oh, if my conversions have gotten lower versus last month, don't send it automatically to the customer because something's going on. That customer is going to be pissed. They're going to be asking questions. So let's take a look at that first.

What's happening and then communicate it. And that's kind of the key difference, I think, right? There are many tools and reporting software out there, but for us, we always went to people who manage Google Ads accounts, primarily because, let's face it, that's the biggest place where people spend money online when it comes to digital advertising. If we can make that better, that's going to have a huge impact on businesses.

And then, from there, we started, but it was always about, like, within the platform, with the data from the platform, how do we make things more efficient for you? Let's move on to optimizing ads. So for somebody who has an e-commerce business and they say they're spending $10,000 a month or whatever, that may be a small amount for using the tool. All of the tools were not that expensive, really, when I went and had a look at them. How should we be optimizing?

Very broad, but say for an e-commerce business that's selling a product, and I've got maybe four main products, how should they be optimizing their campaigns? We've got smart campaigns in Google that can take out some of the customization, right? But you provide better customization for more specific campaigns. So what should we be doing as e-commerce business owners to be able to get better results with our ads by customizing them the right way?

Things we should be looking for and doing. Exactly. When you talk about shopping and e-commerce, you're talking about smart shopping campaigns or regular shopping campaigns. So that's a distinction Google draws. In the smart shopping campaign, there aren't a whole lot of settings. They're ideal for someone who doesn't really want to deal with the complexity, and they provide good enough results. Right. But if you want to take it to the next level, now you're talking about regular shopping campaigns where you have access to all the bells and whistles, the dials, and all the different settings.

The first question I would ask is, What's the difference between these products? Do they all have different margins? Is there a different seasonality? Is there another sort of business driver that impacts what sells when and how much profit we get for it? That's really the first question because that's going to help you decide, how do you structure things out? Now, in a simple situation, all of your products have the same margin. They all have the same seasonality. I mean, put them all in one campaign.

One target is to get a return on ad spend on it. And you can basically be done. But the reality is that it probably varies. It differs for different products. And so now you're going to start saying, Okay, well, maybe I need to have one campaign for my high margin products and a different one for my low margin products. And then I can set different target returns on ad spends for each of these that help me at the very least break even and grow my business, but ideally also drive a lot of profit for me, right?

But you have to have different targets for profitability if you have different margins. So that's probably the first place I would start. Now, I'm also talking about the target return on ad spend. So let's maybe explain that a bit, because I'm not sure everyone knows about smart bidding, right? But Google has become much more automated than it was even a couple of years ago. So most advertisers—if we look at our advertisers—use some form of automated bidding from Google today.

So the days of manually setting up your bids are over. Nobody does that anymore. Right. But automated bidding doesn't mean you'd set it and forget it. It just means that there are certain things that you had to do before Google handled them, but you still have to think about things like, What's my target? And it's no longer a target CPC or a maximum CPC; it's a target return on ad spend, a target cost per acquisition. So, like, how do you set that? And that usually depends on campaigns and ad groups.

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There'll be a link in the description too. Yeah, there's so much within the Google Ads platform. And then there's gonna be so much within Optimizer that you can use to customize your ads. And from what I gather is that Google is going very general using AI and then Optimizer is a great tool to allow you to get better customization of your ads.

I want to ask you a very broad question around this. How is AI changing digital marketing in Google ads? Or how is it changing the digital marketing world? Like you talk about with these smart campaigns, automated bidding, this is a big thing for people to understand because this can be a lot of money left on the table just by going with the recommended automated suggestions that Google has. Yeah, well, it's a great question. And so I wrote a book.

But I got a new one coming out on level, the playing field. It's coming out in January. And it's really, it's about the biggest mind shift in digital marketing. And AI is obviously one of the biggest things that's happened, not just in digital marketing, but in general, right? Like everything is devoid of self-driving cars. They couldn't happen without some form of AI. Like all these business decisions that get made, AI is driving these. But really, we have to remember that, like you said, you can leave a lot of money on the table.

If you just take the default recommendations, because these AIs are in some way generalized systems that look at patterns. But they don't look at the patterns as they relate to your business. So they might know things like, oh, well, what's the conversion rate for your company, depending on whether somebody is coming on a mobile device or a desktop, and depending on the time of day and the location that they come from.

So all of these signals that Google has. But what if you sell car batteries, that the first day that it's freezing, that you have frost overnight, that's when a lot of car batteries are gonna die. So the next morning, that's when your budgets, you gotta double them, you gotta triple them, because what you usually spend, you're gonna double that that day, because there's gonna be so many dead batteries and people looking to get them fixed that day. Google doesn't know that, right?

I mean, maybe Google knows it, but that's a fairly big assumption and not one that we can rely on. They may have not built that into the AI for, if you're like, hey, you know that the the temperature of the location that you're selling in has changed That's probably not built in to the AI right exactly I Guess it's not I don't know that for sure But again, it's like those things where you do you they're so specific to your business that you can only assume Google's Probably not looking at that quite yet And so the worst that you can do is you can give them that signal and now they're double counting that signal, right?

Okay, fine, whatever then did triple or quadruple my budget instead of doubling it, But that's great because I'm going to sell more car batteries anyway. That's a much better problem to have than completely missing that opportunity. And so that's one of those rules that humans have to play by. Right, so you're basically a teacher to the machine; that's it. That's an interesting way to look at it in terms of a mental model. You're a feature of the machine of Google ads that allow to come in. What are some of the other ways that AI is allowing us as advertisers, to leave money on the table? So that's one example, but what are some other, other examples that we should be thinking about? Because I think if we give people multiple use cases of how they could be leaving money on the table, it's going to open their eyes to see that smart campaigns and different campaigns may not actually be getting the results they want, and it can also mean the difference between them being profitable or not as well.

Yeah. That's a great question.

Where people leave money on the table with AI is in budgets. So people think that the AI is automatically going to bid the right amount. But there's this thing called impression share loss due to rank and budget in Google Ads. If you've got really conservative targets for your target cost per acquisition or your target return on ad spend, you could actually be looking at 50% of the opportunity being lost.

But because you're in an automation sort of mindset, you think, Well, Google's figuring this out. Like, what do I need to do? But if you still monitor these things and then you see, Oh my God, 50% of my opportunities are being lost, Now you can ask questions like, Is my target incorrect? Am I being too conservative in how I've done this? And then you can ask questions like, Am I being too conservative because maybe my conversion rate optimization projects haven't been set up correctly?

On the page versus 20%, well, that's a huge impact on how aggressive you can be with your bids. And if your competitors are doing this, well, then they're eating your lunch, basically. They're taking away those top positions. And Google's gotten much more competitive, too. They used to have all these ads on the right-hand side of the page. Now it's really focused on top-of-page results.

So if you're not in those top three or four results, you're just not going to be that visible. And so the other two roles that we say that people have to play in this more is so there's the PPC doctor who remedies problems and also knows about interactions, right? And I can talk much more about that in a minute if you want. And then there's the PPC pilot. And the PPC pilot just looks at anomalies. By the way, did you know that the average pilot flies a plane for 11 minutes per flight? But the reason they're there is that if something goes wrong, they can take control and know what to do. And that's what we need to do as well, because Google does break sometimes.

So you're basically sitting in the cockpit just in case something needs attention. So let's talk about what a PPC doctor is, and then let's move on to what a PPC pilot is, so people can understand what roles they have to play with their own ads. Yeah, so when you go to the doctor, they're supposed to diagnose your problem and then have a bunch of solutions for you. But they also ask you questions about interactions, right?

So what medication do you already take? Because what they're going to prescribe depends on what you're already doing. Um, so I like to liken this to in digital marketing, where there's this whole notion of last click attribution or attribution models, and an attribution model is basically just saying, If you get a conversion or you get a successful event happening with your business, who do you give credit to for that thing? Having happened over the last two decades in digital marketing, that means that if I do 15 searches that eventually lead up to me buying something, Only the last thing I searched gets any of that credit now.

Here's an example: Say you sell sneakers. Say you're a D, and you sell Ultra Boost. The 22s just came out. So someone does all of these searches. They eventually go to Ultra Boost 22 In a size 10 and a half. They buy that product now that gets all the credit for advertising for Adidas, and somebody tells me the keyword sneakers, which is upper funnel, right? So it's never the thing that gets the conversion right afterwards. It's the thing that drives you down the path of looking for more specific things. And if they say that gets no credit, no conversions, I'm not stupid. I'm not going to turn off that keyword because I know that's a huge part of their business. But if you're a computer and you're doing automated bidding, you're like, Well, I mean, the advertiser told me last click attribution. So this thing has no value.

Or I'm going to bid really low for it. And guess what happens next month? Your funnel goes from being really wide to really narrow, and fewer conversions come out at the bottom. And that's a huge mistake you can make. And as a PPC doctor, you know that's not the way to do it. Because of those other things, those other key words could actually be more valuable than the last click attribution. They're instrumental in getting people through the funnel. Exactly.

And so now, luckily, Google has recently changed, with data-driven attribution becoming the standard. And so this is really sophisticated. And it's again, AI machine learning driven models. But they can start to understand, Oh, well, if the user did a search for sneakers and then for running shoes and then for lifestyle sneakers, how much did each of these things contribute to the end result, which was somebody buying a pair of sneakers? Yeah, yeah, gotcha. That makes sense. That's really good.

So I think one of the primary things you, as a PPC pilot, would do is set up alerts and figure out what we need to carefully monitor. So again, let's take bidding, because this is one of the most common things that advertisers automate. So I think that's the primary thing. And then the second thing is that you have to be able to monitor the product.

So if you're a PPC pilot, you have to be able to monitor the product. So if you're a PPC pilot, you have to be able to monitor the product. So if you're a PPC pilot, you have to be able to monitor the product.

So you've got automated bidding, target return on ad spend. And by the way, what that means is, like, how much value in sales needs to be driven for each dollar of advertising spend that you do, right? So you set a target for that. It's usually expressed as a percentage. But Google then does all this portfolio management, and they're bidding different things for different keywords, and at the end of the day, like your campaign in general, it kind of comes close to having reached that target return on ad spend.

In fact, this happened about three weeks ago, the Google shopping campaign system was broken. And all of a sudden, the bids for shopping ads were going up really dramatically. You end up stuck with a bill, and Google is refunding some of that because it was a bug. But what if it hadn't been a bug and it was a competitor coming in that caused this to happen for you? You can set up a learning system that says, Well, sure, we're doing target return on ad spend bidding, but I still want to know when my average cost per click goes above $10 per click, because historically, maybe you've tried that and you've seen that that's too much.

At the very least, you want to know about it, right? So get an email alert, go look at the account, and figure out what's going on. We've also seen cases where, all of a sudden, the conversion rate system reports that conversions are going way down. And what does the automated bidding system do? Well, it says that I'm going to bid lower and lower and lower because my conversion rate is dropping, so they figured out that the website was down. There was nothing wrong with people wanting to buy your stuff.

They wanted to buy it, but they couldn't. And now, the automated system that's doing the bidding thought that your conversion rate was bad when, in fact, it was just a website that was down. So the moment you brought the website back online, you should have told the bidding system, ignore all of this data from the last six hours because it's invalid. It doesn't matter. That's what the pilot does. They look at it like, What's the real cause of the thing?

And how do we get the machine to get back on track? Yeah, right. Wow. Okay. When I think about it now, we've just basically opened a whole can of worms about how many things can happen with our campaigns through AI and targeting and different campaigns that can just allow us to, or I don't even understand how much money we're leaving on the table. We're going to have to maybe have a bigger conversation in other podcasts or something like that. But I'd love to ask, where do you see Google ads and AI evolving, and what else should we be prepared for that may be coming?

Yeah, I mean, so there's a story that goes way back to my earlier days at Google, Eric Schmidt, who was the CEO at the time. Every week on Fridays, there was this TGIF meeting, the whole company, the two founders, and then CEO Eric Schmidt. And at one point he got up on stage and said, You know, the ideal vision, the end vision for Google ads, is that the advertiser comes to us, tells us what their goal is, and gives us a blank check. And we go and make that happen for them. Right.

That's sort of the end game for AdWords, and they are getting somewhat closer. And it's a bit of a scary vision to give a blank check, but I think the fundamental shift that advertisers have to make is that they have to stop managing the things they care about and their goals and values, right? So we've spent too many decades worrying about exactly what keyword and what bid we want, when what we really should be focused on today is communicating to Google when something good happened, how much that was worth to us, and then how much more of that we want to get.

If we do a good job with that, then we can steer the machine learning system toward doing more of that good stuff. If you do lead generation and try to get leads for your business, you've been doing manual bidding, manual optimization, and all of that before. Now you transition to doing it automatically through Google, which is very easy to set up. But then you look at the leads, which are going up, your target, and your cost per acquisition for those leads, which are going down. So everything should be good, right? You're paying less, you're getting more. But then you look at the state of the business at the end of the month, and they've actually sold fewer things.

Even though you had more leads. So what's the problem? Well, the problem is that you told Google you wanted leads, But you don't want leads; you want customers, right? So you have to redefine how you inform Google because the machine is only as good as the information that you put into it. If you don't tell it what you want, it's going to do stuff that you can't control. It can give you a hundred leads That aren't as qualified as the type of leads that you actually want and that are going to allow you to get conversions as well. Where are those leads coming from Keywords, right?

Exactly. That's amazing. That's amazing to think about. So you're saying communicate better. What's more important to our business with our advertisers, basically? Exactly. So it's again like what Eric was saying back then, which is to tell us what you want, but don't lie about it. Don't hide details because the machine, when it doesn't have the details, can get you the thing you really want. And there's a trust factor, right?

And there was the whole mantra of don't be evil, which they got rid of. And they didn't get rid of it because they all of a sudden became evil, but it was more that, you know, everybody's reading so much into it. And it's like this whole thing you now have to defend. And it becomes this whole philosophical debate. You know, Google thrives when advertisers have growing businesses and are successful. And guess what? I mean, advertisers can go to Facebook, they can go to other platforms. They could go and spend money on TV again. Right. But advertisers want to grow their businesses.

The place that does it best is where they're going to invest more money. So that's good. That's all Google wants; they want to give you the best true conversions for the lowest possible price. And that's why they're building these systems. The systems are not perfect, so they need monitoring. We call that concept automation layering, by the way, right? So we put systems in place through the optimizer that monitor these automations from Google to steer them in the right direction. Yeah, that's what it's all about—just taking back control.

Taking back control. I think that's absolutely critical, as is understanding more about your business and then communicating that so you can take back more control. Where can we find out more about Optimizer, Fred? Yeah, Optimizer.com, O-P-T-M-Y-Z-R. There's no E in Optimizer. AutoCorrect always mentions that. People can't even remember it. Domain names were a bit hard to come by when we started the company, so it is what it is.

But yeah, you can also look for PPC management software, which will usually pop up somewhere. Awesome. Good work on getting that ranking. So, Fred, you have a new book. It's just been published. Congratulations. What's in the book briefly, and where can we go away and grab this? Yeah, thank you. It's Unleveling the Playing Field, the biggest mind shift in PPC history. So a lot of the stuff we talked about today was taking those concepts, kind of building on them, and giving very tactical examples of how you can level the playing field.

Because honestly, the biggest fear I hear from advertisers is, If everyone has access to the same automation from Google, how do I stand out? How do I remain competitive? And there are definitely ways you can do it. And that's what the book is about. So it's on Amazon, Kindle, audiobook, print, whatever you want—go through Amazon, unlevel the playing field, and you should find it.

Thank you so much for coming on, Fred. Everybody that is listening, if you are running ads, doesn't matter where specifically, if you are running on Google, but this will be related to many different advertising platforms as well with the AI that they build. Make sure you share this episode with two or three people who are running ads or are going to be running ads for their business. So they're not leaving money on the table either.

Thanks for listening, guys, and I'll see you on the next one.